Season 2, Episode 55 - Have You Heard? The Drive’s Caleb Jacobs

 

 

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Sean P. Holman (0s):

Hey, lighting, Have You Heard. Welcome

Recording (3s):

To Barnes and No,

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (5s):

No, I have not.

Recording (7s):

The truck show. We’re gonna show you what we know. We’re gonna answer what? The truck, because Truck s The truck show. We have the lifted. We have the lowered and everything in between. We’ll talk about trucks that run on Diesel and the ones that run on gasoline. The truck show. The truck show. The truck show. Oh, It’s the truck show with your hosts Lightning and Holman.

Sean P. Holman (44s):

This episode of The Truck Show Podcast Have You Heard It is proudly presented by Nissan with the Frontier Titan and Titan Xd. Nissan has a truck for every need, along with the legendary Nissan durability Test. Drive your next truck at a local Nissan dealer today, or point your browser to Nissan usa.com where you can use the build and price tool to configure a Nissan truck that fits your lifestyle.

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (1m 4s):

And when you’re thinking about, and when you’re thinking about adding power or improving fuel economy, Banks has over 65 years of experience, whether it’s cold air intakes or exhaust systems tuning, throttle control charge, air cooling, lubrication components, and much more. No one offers smarter, safer, 50 state emissions compliant performance parts than Gale Banks. You’ll find the best engineered parts for your truck at Banks Power dot com. This

Recording (1m 29s):

Is the show where they talk breaking news. And This is the part where Coleman has Lightning Have You Heard.

Sean P. Holman (1m 37s):

On this episode of The Truck Show Podcast Have You Heard. We’ve got our friend Caleb Jacobs journalist for The Drive. So why don’t we give him a call?

Caleb Jacobs (1m 47s):

What’s up? What’s up? What’s up?

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (1m 48s):

On the phone, we’ve got one, Mr. Caleb Jacobs of The Drive and The Drive dot com. He is a journalist and we love the dude, and we’ve been wanting to have you on the show for quite some time. Welcome.

Caleb Jacobs (2m 1s):

Hey man. Thank you guys for having me. Glad to be here. You know, this is, I gotta say, whenever you’re in the, the media game, especially in the automotive media game, you, you get tired of, of reading the same stuff over and over and over again. And really it takes a lot to, you know, make you want to tune in if it’s something that you do every day for work. But I tell you, this truck Show Podcast, it’s All, right?

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (2m 25s):

He’s lying. He starts us, the show with a lie right to our face.

Sean P. Holman (2m 28s):

No, it’s to our face. It’s right to our ears. Right to our ears. Yeah. I’m gonna roll with it though. Oh,

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (2m 33s):

Yeah, yeah. We got a quick intro to play. Don’t do dare move,

Recording (2m 37s):

Pull up a stool and share, pull up a stool and share Us a story. Pull up a stool and share.

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (2m 47s):

How about you pull up a stool and share with us. So Caleb’s been doing some research on quite a few topics, one of which I’m very interested in, and we’ve been covering it quite a bit on the show. And that’s the, the latest Dieselgate with Cummins. Now we’ve got a few other topics to cover, but Holman, if you don’t mind, can we get into That one first? Sure. So Caleb had a, a, an ear on a call with, was it the Department of Justice in the EPA and Cummins? Or explain that call recently and what you learned.

Caleb Jacobs (3m 20s):

Yeah, yeah, of course. So, it was the Department of Justice. It was the EPA, it was California Air Resources Board. And so, yeah, essentially I got to be a fly on the wall during this call where they gave a little bit of a run, a rundown, what’s happening, what’s Cummins? The settlements gave a few more details, obviously that’s something that we’ve been curious about. You know, there wasn’t much new information after news of the settlement was, was, was made. And then finally they, they said Cummins did do wrong on purpose.

Sean P. Holman (4m 0s):

So they said that, that that was the, that Cummins was naughty. They were very naughty, naughty, naughty little boy.

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (4m 5s):

You think that’s how they said it? I don’t think they speak like that.

Sean P. Holman (4m 8s):

And then they brought out their little, I think it was like a yardstick, and they slapped him right across the knuckles and they said, 2 billion please.

Caleb Jacobs (4m 16s):

Yeah, 2 billion, please. Exactly that. Well, and that’s, that’s been the thing, right? Is that so far Cummins has said that they have no evidence of anyone acting in bad faith. You know, they don’t admit any wrongdoing. And so that, you know, was mentioned during this call, right? By reporters, they say, this is what Cummins is telling people. The feds feel differently. The quote that I got was that they, that Cummins deserves to pay every dollar. It was called a brazen scheme, smoke and mirrors. So there’s a clearly bad blood between the two. And the feds feel pretty strongly about it.

Sean P. Holman (4m 54s):

Now, is this before or after the feds tallied up all the emissions from airplanes and cargo ships when they said all the, all the horrible things it was doing to small children and, and all that. They’re

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (5m 6s):

Not really looking at those things right now, are they?

Sean P. Holman (5m 8s):

I don’t think so.

Caleb Jacobs (5m 11s):

Well, you know, this has been the hot ticket item. And, and you know, all over the past few years, of course it’s been the, the Diesel aftermarket. But you know, Cummins, far from the first manufacturer to deal with this. We’ve seen the federal government take on several OEMs, automakers just alike. And, but This is the, the largest civil penalty issued under the Clean Air Act

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (5m 33s):

In one of the articles. Well, no, it was the, the, the, the president or CEO of Cummins said we cannot find any wrongdoing And. it also said,

Sean P. Holman (5m 41s):

Well, I think, I think they said intentional.

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (5m 42s):

Oh, was that the case? I

Sean P. Holman (5m 44s):

Believe the quote intentional something like they, they don’t think it was anybody did anything on, on purpose. It wasn’t malicious kind of what we had talked about before. But things have changed in the last 72 hours since this call that Caleb was on with the government. It seems like there’s a lot more information coming out now than when we last spoke about it.

Caleb Jacobs (6m 4s):

So as far as what the federal government is putting out there, right, what they’re saying, Cummins did, they, they mentioned that part of it was undisclosed software of Oh, the auxiliary emissions control devices. That was a big part was that Cummins didn’t disclose that. But the EPA does say that 2013 through 2019 Ram heavy duties, they did have software defeat devices, according to their definition of that term. It’s still kind of all over the place. They didn’t say This is the exact component that we found to be out of compliance or anything like that. But it all has to do with software

Sean P. Holman (6m 43s):

So, it, it, it kind of lines up with what we had surmised with Peter at SEMA and, and Corey over at PPEI and our previous podcast. But what’s interesting is, you know, the government, when they put out these press releases, like to use these, these words that aren’t clearly defined, for example, significant, right? Like they said, you know, causing significant impact or significant harm. Well, what, what qualifies as significant, what is that definition? Is it something that’s actually noticeable? Is It is it from a different perspective of, of the automotive industry? Is it a percentage is or is it just they’re overaggressive?

Sean P. Holman (7m 24s):

Is it something that could have been solved with paperwork? Like those are all the burning questions I have. Like clearly these trucks are not coming outta the factory, you know, rolling coal, right? Like we’re, they’re not, they’re not gross polluters and I don’t think anybody has said they’re gross polluters, but however there’s some sort of thing in the software that allowed them to get around whatever the regulations were. So, okay. Yeah. Slap on the wrist. That’s bad. I wanna know it. The level of, of how bad and don don’t think anybody’s really come forward to say what the exact impacts they’re using this broad language with adjectives like significant and, and, but that’s not defined.

Caleb Jacobs (7m 58s):

Right? Right. And and I think they’re able to, you know, kind of lean on the number of trucks that are in question here. Right? So in total it’s nearly a million, I think it’s 960,000 and So I think that they kind of get by with that in that way. You know, it’s, it’s clear that whenever you’re dealing with that many vehicles, no matter how much excess they pollute, they could consider it to be significant. So that’s one of those questions that, you know, we weren’t able to ask because I wasn’t given that much time with them. Right. You know, they’re a good part of the call that I sat in on was them briefing us and then they gave journalists just pretty much one opportunity to ask the most burning question.

Caleb Jacobs (8m 38s):

And So I went with something a little different. Yeah. Maybe opener interpretation, which, you know, who knows if that’s the way it should be, but that’s, that’s the way It is. Yeah.

Sean P. Holman (8m 47s):

And I’ll, I’ll, I’ll add a little bit of scale to this. So in 2022, which is I think the last full year of, of sales, almost 14 million units were moved in the United States cars and trucks. And, and that was I think like 13.9 was the number that I could find. So you figure a million trucks, it’s less than 10% of one year of the entire automotive sales in the United States, for example. I’m not saying that’s good or bad, I’m not saying that that justifies it, but just so I’m not gonna just dispute them saying significant without putting out something you can measure by. So to me, I guess that’s the easiest thing we could do is say that’s how that amount of trucks relates in the grander scheme of how many vehicles are sold each year.

Caleb Jacobs (9m 28s):

Yeah, yeah. I hear you completely. And this is one of those times where fortunately it isn’t my job to make, make up anybody’s mind for them. I can present the facts as I find them. You and you and me and all of us Can, you know, have these discussions where we point out our findings and, and fortunately everybody that you know, listens to this podcast can, can make up their own minds. But these are all things that you have to consider. You know, by the way, it’s not good to What’s up,

Sean P. Holman (9m 56s):

Caleb gets a bell. Why is that? Because he is being an actual journalist where he is actually providing the facts. Anything in the middle of the story’s. Yeah. So I’m just gonna, I’m gonna give him a lot of bells ’cause there’s not a lot of that going on these days. Are you

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (10m 8s):

Watching the groups and the forms, Cummins specifically the ram groups? Are you watching these groups? Because the ram owners are in, they’ve got their panties in a wad. Like they are freaked out right now because you got a couple different groups. You got the guy who Holman, this is honest to God truth a white, I’m gonna say it was a 2020 ram goes down in front of Banks stops and he walks in under the, by the flagpole, walks into Rosa and says, I need to meet with a technician. And she’s like, they’re not available now. They’re, they’re working on things, whatever. He goes, okay, he gets bang’s truck, he goes over the install bay and he tries to get Robert’s attention, one of our installers. And Robert’s like, I am, I’m, I’m under a truck.

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (10m 49s):

I can’t talk right now. So he circles the block three times. Now everyone’s kind of getting sketched out. Like, what’s this guy? He’s clean cut in a beautiful truck, white lifted Ram Robert comes into the office and says, go talk to it. So I walk out. And I said, is this emissions related? He’s like, how’d you know? I said, I just had a feeling. And he said, tell me, do I need to register this truck in Arizona and delete it? You

Sean P. Holman (11m 17s):

Were. And I said, not the police.

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (11m 18s):

And I said, well that’s not in our wheelhouse. We don’t do that. It’s illegal. And then we proceeded to have this discussion and he pulled out a, an envelope with a bunch of scribbles all over the envelope. It was just whatever he happened to have in the center console. And he had all these notes from articles, podcasts, everywhere. And he was trying to figure out if he should take his truck in to have the recall done. So this is a roundabout way of saying that all these guys are freaked about the recall. They are concerned that, that when they go and have this recall done, that’s already gone out to tens of thousands of RAM owners. They go in and they get the software, the firmware

Sean P. Holman (11m 54s):

Really hundreds of thousands of RAM owners. Well

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (11m 56s):

They will, but right now they’re just rolling out in batches, right? Small batches. So they don’t overload the RAM dealers ’cause they have to handle the software update. So these guys are going in having their software update done to their ECM and they’re all concerned that the DEF consumption is going to go up and they’ll spend more money a death and things will corrode faster and just everything bad that happens with death. And so this guy had that same concern and I said, don’t worry about it. If your deaf consumption does go up, it’s not gonna kill your truck and just try to put him at ease to get him down rolling down the block and leave us alone. But they’re all saying the same thing. You go on these groups and they’re all posting, well ’cause they’re all freaked. Recall.

Sean P. Holman (12m 34s):

Notice there, there’s multiple issues. There’s, there’s the guy still under warranty who’s gonna go, ah, crap, I gotta get this done on my next oil change. No big deal. Right? Then there’s the guy who is skirting the wheels and still under warranty. He may not be able to register his vehicle in certain states because he’s gotta get that done. And he’s got maybe a, a, a moderate tune, but it’s not carb or carb approved. and then you got the guy who’s outta warranty and the day he got outta warranty, he ripped everything off and said, screw it, you guys are never seeing my truck again. And now they’re saying, Hey, bring your truck on back. And now he’s gotta go figure out how to return his modified truck to stock, how to go get a DPF, how to go get all the stuff he needs. Yep, yep. Because he may not be able to register his

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (13m 12s):

Vehicle. There are so many guys with compound turbo setups. No, no. SE I don, no def, no DP no e,

Sean P. Holman (13m 17s):

Nothing. I mean, and you’re talking about $40,000 in parts probably, or something like that. Right. Or in labor. And, and don don’t know how many times we warned people on the show and we were like, don’t do it. Chicken’s coming home to roost. I guess a rooster would come

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (13m 29s):

Home to roost. But

Sean P. Holman (13m 30s):

Either way, clearly I’m not, I’m not from the country, but some sort of bird that lays eggs is going to come home and make a bunch of noise in your backyard, whatever. And the, the, the fact is that that time is now. So go in your backyard and hopefully they laid a golden egg. ’cause that’s what you’re gonna need in order to pay for all the parts to retrofit your truck back to stock.

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (13m 51s):

I mean, and then the dealers won’t be able to take them and it’s just gonna, Bess gonna be, it’s

Sean P. Holman (13m 54s):

Gonna ugly.

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (13m 55s):

Ugly. Yeah. So Caleb, I don’t know if It is be right for The Drive who you write for. Maybe it’s a little too esoteric or inside the Ram community, but you’re, when you are talking about a million trucks and a lot of these guys are gonna have to face the music that Holman just outlined, whether they have a mild tune or any of these situations, they don’t want to go back to stock. They don’t want the new firmware flash. You know, they like, they’re freaking out. Yeah,

Caleb Jacobs (14m 19s):

Well they are. And of course, something that we have to consider too is that there’s gonna be pressure from Cummins to get these jobs done, right? I mean it’s a requirement that they repair 85% of these vehicles within the first three years or they face additional penalties. Now the good news for those folks that have left their trucks alone, that have always, you know, maintained in the way that, you know, the factory suggests is that Cummins is required to provide an extended warranty on these emissions components. And so that’s all actually outlined in the consent decree, you know, and like the legal paperwork that not everybody should have to go through, right? Like that’s kind of my job to relay it. But you know, it’s like up to 120,000 years or 120,000 miles or 10 years from the data manufacturer.

Caleb Jacobs (15m 3s):

Obviously there are a lot of people that are gonna already fall out of that, you know, more than 120,000 miles on a truck. Especially if it’s getting close to 10 years old. But that’s at least one way that, that Cummins is going to work with owners, work with customers. But even still, there’re gonna be a lot of folks that are outta luck, just like you said, as far

Sean P. Holman (15m 22s):

As a lot of cases. Yeah.

Caleb Jacobs (15m 24s):

Well

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (15m 24s):

And Kayla, exactly. If you, if you have a, let’s say you’ve got a 2017 with an extended warranty, you’re still in it, but you’ve got a turbo system or you’ve got tuning or you have something that affects potentially the emission system they don’t have, or they, maybe by law they have to change out your DPF or SCR system, whatever they,

Sean P. Holman (15m 46s):

But they want the core. They’re not just gonna replace it if it’s

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (15m 48s):

Missing they No, no, I’m saying they have, I, I know that there are dealerships right now that the guy will go in and goes, yeah, I’ve got a DPF that’s gone bad, it’s clogged, whatever. And they go, you’ve gotta tune in it. We’re not warranting it. So even though legally yeah, they’re supposed to cover it for 10 years, they can skirt it and not pay because you’ve tuned the truck. I

Sean P. Holman (16m 5s):

Know what they’re gonna get. Yes. E even whether they have a a, a warranty or not, they’re gonna get something for free.

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (16m 11s):

What’s that?

Sean P. Holman (16m 12s):

A sad trombone. They might even get two if they’re lucky.

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (16m 19s):

And as they leave

Sean P. Holman (16m 21s):

You know what I would be. I would be the service writer at the RAM dealership and I would just play that all day long as people were coming in or, or it would be the on hold music for scheduling your, your ram to come in. Does

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (16m 31s):

That sound like something that you’ll be covering? The, the the aftermath. The aftermath, the ram fervor.

Caleb Jacobs (16m 37s):

Oh, of course, of course. Just as much as, as my job right? To, to cover this industry news, It is my job to be plugged into the culture, right? It is to talk to these people that own these trucks that are affected by these decisions that are made at a huge corporate scale that affect them individually. And so yeah, these are, these are concerns that people have had, you know, they’re nothing new, but whenever it’s something that is, is mandated in this way, right? Whenever it’s this huge sweeping program that just, they get roped into, you know, we, we don’t have necessarily as much experience with that. And so it’s gonna be interesting to see how it unfolds. It’s gonna be a lot like Sean said, I’m afraid and I hate for those people.

Caleb Jacobs (17m 17s):

But that’s, that’s a very possible reality. And that language is put into these core documents, right? It it says that, you know, certain modifications are made, those parts do not have to be warranted. So that’s something you have to pay close attention to, right? You can’t just assume that all of this stuff is gonna be added back to your truck for free or that it’s gonna be replaced or repaired for free if the way you have modified it, you know, takes it outside of those limits. Now exactly what those limits are, that it gets a little tricky there and it’s, it’s not up to a service writer’s discretion either.

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (17m 54s):

So that’ll be interesting to follow up on All. right? So whiplash segue, Caleb cyber truck. I know The Drive has covered a lot. You’ve had cyber trucks going off the road, stuck on the snow, the whole thing. What is your opinion on the cyber truck mania?

Caleb Jacobs (18m 13s):

Oh man, this is a discussion that we have as a staff, like pretty much every day. Have

Sean P. Holman (18m 18s):

You seen it in person yet?

Caleb Jacobs (18m 21s):

No, I haven’t. I do. I live in Missouri. I live in the Ozark. Okay. There, there’s not anything here.

Sean P. Holman (18m 25s):

So, I just saw it, touched it, sat in it this week. So I. I want to hear what you have to say because after seeing it, I may, I may feel different about things

Caleb Jacobs (18m 35s):

Way

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (18m 36s):

What?

Caleb Jacobs (18m 39s):

So I, just, just to give you my 2 cents, right, as far as like somebody that, you know, like has to cover this for a living or whatever. I, I hate how often I’m forced to make the decision of whether or not we should cover something because there’s something new every day, right? That, you know, at least somebody is going to write about, they’re gonna share a viral video, you know, they’re gonna point and laugh or whatever. And sometimes that’s warranted, you know, like there are definitely a few of those where we’ve seen the cyber truck fall on its face and Sure. You know, like go ahead write about it. But I think that, you know, if we were able to look at it separately from all the hype that’s gone into it over the past, like however many years, it feels like 20 at this point.

Caleb Jacobs (19m 20s):

But if we were able to just judge it on its own, independent of Elon’s claims or whatever, you know, don don’t think everybody would want to dunk on it so hard. Now of course it still looks the way that it does. That’s for some people and not for others. But don don’t know. That’s just my take

Sean P. Holman (19m 35s):

All, right? I I was gonna, I was gonna deliver my hot take in a segment on the show, but since we’re talking about it here, we don’t

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (19m 42s):

Have a hot take intro yet, so you can just do it here.

Sean P. Holman (19m 44s):

All So I had the chance to see the truck a couple months before it came out, or maybe a month or so before it came out. And

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (19m 53s):

Coleman steak on the cyber truck.

Sean P. Holman (19m 55s):

And so the cyber truck to me when I saw it, I was a aghast would be a really good, no pun intended, would be a really good word. And So I, I wasn’t super stoked on it. I was kinda like, what a monstrosity, why would you do it? Blah, blah, blah. Now this is years ago and I’ve, I have, you know, reported on seeing whatever, all the conversations and then all the ones getting stuck and all that stuff. And I, I actually had a conversation on online this week where somebody was bashing just ’cause it was an ev and I’m like, listen, as a journalist, I have my own feelings of where EVs fit in the world, but my job isn’t to take those personal feelings of whether something’s appropriate or inappropriate or whatever.

Sean P. Holman (20m 38s):

It’s to judge the product on its own merits standing alone, right? Take away the infrastructure, take away the conversation about EVs, take away all that stuff. I’m a customer. I’m looking for a cool vehicle. Let me understand this, whatever the early fit and finish from the rcs from the release candidates were, was atrocious. We all saw the photos online, the, the vehicles right? Did not look like they were screwed together. Well they honestly didn’t look that impressive. There’s been lots of people who’ve had videos and memes and I think the meme and the videos of getting stuck is really low hanging fruit because to to lightning’s point, it’s kinda like how the, the ridge line is the truck for Honda people.

Sean P. Holman (21m 18s):

They’re going from accords and pilots and they’re going, I’d like to pick a truck, but don don’t need A-A-A-A-A half ton. I’m gonna go to Home Depot. I’m gonna put my kids’ bikes in the back, we’re gonna go surfing it. It’s perfect for those people. Well I think in the same way the cyber truck is the truck for Tesla people and they’re basically not really looking for a pickup truck. They’re looking for a statement and something cool and something that’s different. So, I, look at it as a lifestyle vehicle, not a pickup truck. So I’ll, I’ll, I’ll start there. I recently got invited over to Unplugged Performance who had a customer vehicle there and I gotta spend about two hours with it. And I gotta tell you, the production one I saw the fit and finish was really good. The doors felt like bank vaults when you close them, nothing felt cheap.

Sean P. Holman (22m 0s):

Chinsy, I still hate the big screen and nothing in front of the steering Wheel that still bugs me. I I’ve never liked a a setup like that. I wish they would’ve had a a second screen with some additional information from the driver. When you sit in it, it doesn’t feel super, super weird. It’s big, it’s airy. When you see it parked next to a model three or a y it’s ginormous. And this one was, yeah, on 30 fives, 35 inch tires on, on twenties, on Unplugged performance’s, new Wheel. And the more I I I hung out with it. I was kinda like, you know what, it’s not for me, but there’s some pretty cool stuff on here. And I was, I was kinda looking around, kinda over my shoulder. ’cause I feel like every time I mention cyber truck either people are like, dude, you’re a rad futurist bro.

Sean P. Holman (22m 44s):

You’re one of us a Tesla cult. And then the other half are like, you effing sell out, we hate you. How could you say that? Thing’s cool? And I’m like, no, I can, I can appreciate the vehicle and not want it for myself and do both of those things. It doesn’t mean that I’m part of either one of your quotes. Well,

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (23m 0s):

But it sounds like America where the maj, it’s a silent majority, right? The people who are in the middle aren’t speaking up. You hear from the loud mouths on both sides.

Sean P. Holman (23m 8s):

Well, and, and I think the, the, the memes are easy, but I think the reality is, is those people are on probably full tire pressure on not an off-road tire. You know? And and they don’t know how to drive off road because they’re Tesla people.

Caleb Jacobs (23m 19s):

Exactly. Man, I agree with you completely. And that’s exactly what I see. Like there was That one, I think it was like at Lake Tahoe, man, that snow was stupid deep. Like if you don’t know what you’re doing, you’re gonna get stuck in that no matter what your tires are aired all the way up, you’re just giving it the gas or you know, Tahoe throttle or whatever you wanna call it, you’re gonna get stuck. It, it’s, it’s I don know. Well then

Sean P. Holman (23m 38s):

Everybody’s like, I

Caleb Jacobs (23m 39s):

Agree. I get,

Sean P. Holman (23m 40s):

Wasn’t it a like a f series that pulled it out or something? Everybody’s like, oh, that dude didn’t get stuck. Yeah, he also wasn’t down the the hill either. He was up on the

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (23m 46s):

Right ground. Exactly.

Sean P. Holman (23m 47s):

So I mean So, I, I feel like everybody’s looking for the worst. I’m gonna judge it when I get to drive it. I’m gonna have an opportunity to drive one that’s slightly modified and, and take it off road in the coming months. So I’m excited for that because as a journalist, I’m excited for, for new and exciting things. And I have to hand it to somebody, whether you like Elon the person or not, or you like Tesla the company or not, there’s a certain amount of a nod to it that you have to give that guy because he said, I’m gonna build something that’s totally different than everything out there f you don don’t care if you like it or not. And, and he did. We make no apologies and he did. How many of us would love to do that in our day is, is, is say f whatever’s going on and then just do what we want.

Sean P. Holman (24m 29s):

And that guy did it. And there’s people who appreciate that. And I’ll tell you, the Tesla folks are crazy. They’re, they’re very weird culty type people. A lot of ’em, I’ve, I’ve met them and I was like, okay, calm down. Right? And and we see that online and you see like, oh, I’m the, the Tesla white Knight Hero’s gonna come in and tell you how I’m saving the planet. Like I’ve said on this podcast before, don’t get easy ’cause you’re gonna save the planet. Get an easy, because it fits your use case. There is definitely a place for them. There’s definitely a use case for ’em. The the cyber truck is no more appalling than say a Hummer H three t ev truck. To me it’s just one looks one way, one looks the other. I’m telling you, when you see a cyber truck in person and the panel gaps are tight and the finish is good and it’s sitting in a parking lot in the sun And, it looks like nothing around it looks like a, the future’s in front of you, it looks like a cartoon.

Sean P. Holman (25m 19s):

When you walk around it and you walk around the age, you’re like, I wanna hate it because it’s so stupid and it’s so ugly And it, it’s not a real pickup truck. And yeah, it can tow a little bit, it can haul a little bit and all that. It’s not what I’m used to or what I would’ve look for in a truck and that’s fine. But you know what, I’m still sitting there going, but I don’t hate it. So, I don’t whatcha talking about Will. I don’t know if that makes me, I, I, I, I I’m, I’m, I’m truly like, like no, but I but got a mixed opinion on it.

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (25m 44s):

Yeah, but I, like I said, you are in the middle where you should be because if you were a homer for it, everybody would call you out. Yeah. And if you were on the other side going, I want gas guzzler forever, you know, people that would be insane. So I, don’t know. What is your, as a journalist, what are you seeing Caleb?

Caleb Jacobs (26m 3s):

I I I’m very much the same. I I’m in the middle and I think that if, if you don’t fall in one category or the other, just like John was saying, like you get called whatever the opposite is, and So I, I, I don’t want one. I would not own one because it does not fit my use case. But It is very much a lifestyle vehicle. Something that fits Tesla drivers. And I think that’s what we have to like get through our heads, right? These people are all new to to trucks, most of them, right? Like we see that and, and, and that was the way it was even with F-150 Lightning, you know, so like we shouldn’t be surprised that they don’t exactly fit the mold, especially in domestic pickups that we’ve seen for so long.

Caleb Jacobs (26m 48s):

Like that’s not what they are trying to be. And now, you know, more than ever, or at least more than I’ve seen, you know, in my lifetime, it’s like there’s a whole lot of American trucks to pick from and they aren’t all just the same with different bodies, right? It’s not the exact same layout. It So I don’t know. I think that’s something that you know, you should be excited for. And also just remember this, you know, as far as like the whole Tesla fandom goes, there are people that do not pay attention to this stuff at all. They are not on Twitter all day long. They’re not reading all, you know, all of these people that come out with these like, you know, screes, right? That are saying like, oh, you know, Yolanda is the best thing since widespread or whatever.

Caleb Jacobs (27m 30s):

But those normal people that just see Teslas on the road, those are the ones that tell me. And I’d really like to test drive one So I think that is more telling than what any enthusiast, you know, really has to say is what does the average consumer think about this? And whenever they see it as something neat, as something novel and something that, you know, maybe actually be a better fit for them than a regular gas vehicle, then hey I, I think that’s probably a better measuring stick for us to use.

Sean P. Holman (27m 60s):

So here’s some funny comments that I got. So I posted the thing. So as Sean P Holman on Instagram, I, I posted me with a Dr. Pepper in the cyber truck and I’ll have some all by the time you hear this I’ll probably have some, some more posts up there. But I like

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (28m 11s):

Your post by the, we were like, oh, just having a Dr. Pepper, not acknowledging that you’re standing in front of cyber truck. I like that move.

Sean P. Holman (28m 16s):

And, it was funny ’cause a lot of people like jumped in on that one guy said gross not the Dr. Pepper. That’s a great mixer. The other one appears to Wheel worse than a sheet of plywood. I had, you know, you know what would make this post better if you were leaning on a cyber truck? I had too bad. You know, it’s cool concept but not for this guy. I’m not into electric that yours are lightnings, which is funny. You know, I like the wheels and tires. This one was interesting since I’m not on board with full, full EVs, I have a hybrid, but gd, if I’ll be stuck charging on the side of the road somewhere in the middle of a trip, the cost unre unreliableness are BS to have shoved down our throats by the government. And I wrote back, Hey easy tiger no one is asking you to be.

Sean P. Holman (28m 56s):

I also have a pf as one of my cars. And I agree it’s the best use case for the technology. And I also agree Bevs should not be mandated that the infrastructure’s nowhere near ready. That being said, I’m an, I’m a journalist. It’s my job to be open-minded to all the vehicles and review them on their individual merits and I’ll reserve judgment until I get behind the Wheel. so we had some really good conversations back and forth with some people on that post And it, it was nice ’cause literally it was like 50 50 of people who, who were just trying to have the best comment of the day. The people who absolutely hated it and the people who were like, yeah, that’s kind of rad. And whether you like it or not, it’s polarizing. It’s causing conversation. I don’t think any of those things are ever bad.

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (29m 31s):

What do you think of the guys who are rapping ’em? I saw a, there’s a really nice white one. It cool wrapped black one. I saw the, the, the matte black looked really

Sean P. Holman (29m 37s):

Cool. So you get it from the factory, I think of matte black or white. Oh, you can,

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (29m 40s):

It’s wrapped, right? Wrapped. Yeah. Dude,

Caleb Jacobs (29m 42s):

I gotta, I gotta tell you, the sickest look for a cyber truck, is that rendering where it’s like dropped on the ground?

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (29m 48s):

Yes. Dude,

Sean P. Holman (29m 49s):

That thing was

Caleb Jacobs (29m 50s):

Awesome. was So much

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (29m 50s):

Better? So I was like Ken Ken block livery. Is that the one don Don’t

Sean P. Holman (29m 54s):

Remember how a livery

Caleb Jacobs (29m 54s):

One that I saw. It was still just stainless. It was still just stainless. I don don’t, don don’t remember who posted it. And normally I’m not into renderings, but man, if somebody could like actually make that happen where like the Wheel like the Wheel tire’s tucked, like that was the right look because if you’re gonna go all out and you know, and making something look like totally outlandish, something like you’ve never seen before, like slamming on the ground. Yeah,

Sean P. Holman (30m 14s):

Totally. Just like people were talking about with Raptors and TXs, we’re putting the big drax sl on ’em and slamming ’em and it’s like, do different things. People like a and the Beauty of the cyber truck is, it’s a blank slate. There’s companies out there already making product for it. Like go make it better. Or if it’s, if it’s not for you, you don’t have to buy it. Do

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (30m 33s):

You think we’ll see a bunch of ’em at SEMA? Oh, I

Sean P. Holman (30m 35s):

Think they’ll be, yeah. All of ’em will be at SEMA probably.

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (30m 38s):

What’s, what’s next? What do you have cooking at The Drive that we should know about that we should be on

Sean P. Holman (30m 42s):

The lookout for?

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (30m 43s):

On the lookout for at The Drive dot com.

Caleb Jacobs (30m 46s):

Oh man. So, you know, pursuing stories like, you know, this coming settlement that’s been going on, it just peels back layers of the onion, right? Like it just reveals more and more and more of what we could talk about and what deserves to be talked about. And so like my, my title at The Drive is truck editor and So, it, it’s kind of, you know, it’s like, it’s my motivation to write about trucks in an intelligent way. You know, I think like a lot of times we get written off is just like, you know, do flunkies and hillbillies and like, hey, I’m both of those things, but I want to be able to explain exactly why they stir up so much enthusiasm, right? Amongst people like us and So I, I’m gonna be digging a lot deeper as far as what the EPA is doing and, and taking on, you know, manufacturers also aftermarket tuners.

Caleb Jacobs (31m 37s):

And I think that there’s so much of the story still to be told that, you know, maybe is shared in in niche circles and definitely, you know, obviously on Facebook groups it’s all that people talk about, you know, on unlike any type of open of open forum like that I mean it’s everywhere. But as far as reading about it and, and, and a story that is well researched that has, you know, original quotes and everything else, those pretty few and far between and So I wanna be able to expand on this to convey exactly how big of a deal It is because This is the storyline right now, whether we like it or not, you know, obviously we get tired of talking about this stuff at times, whenever it’s just another fine, another, you know, million dollars here, million dollars there, whatever.

Caleb Jacobs (32m 20s):

But it, it means something whenever you’re able to put it in context. So the rest of the industry and also hear from the people that are like actually involved in it firsthand. So yeah, don don’t, you know, I don’t wanna give away too much, but those are the types of stories that, you know, I pursue at, at every turn.

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (32m 36s):

I have an idea, you should see how easy It is to get your truck deleted and then write about it and then put it back to stock so you don’t get popped because you got like, or, or don’t delete it in the first place. No, because you’re like, I I’m a writer. I I am, I did it for ’cause you’ll still get busted, but like, or you don’t follow through. I think he does follow through and I think you want him to go to jail. You want our guests that we’ve been chasing for a year. Listen to me to go to jail. Listen to me. I love Caleb. He’s not coming on the show again if he’s in prison. No, I know you understand this, right? Yeah, he’s in the pokey. Listen, listen. Corey is our poster child for prison terms and big fines with federal government. We can’t have more than one friend be a felon. The reason I bring this up is because Caleb, again, I hang out on these groups all day long in the forum and every day 30 times a day in all the groups says, Hey, where do I get delete, delete and how much?

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (33m 27s):

Okay? And there’s a bunch of odd guys who wave in Caleb here. Here’s what you have to understand. No, it’s awesome. Wait, wait, wait. No, no, no. Why doesn’t he get it done Caleb and then write about it Caleb. This is, this is why Let me explain something to you. Show how easy It is. No, let me explain something to you. The reason Lightning is saying this is because he wants to do it himself and he’s too much of a pussy. Whatcha you talking about? don don’t have a Diesel and Oh, oh, how convenient. How convenient. But I wouldn’t, so what he doing? Remember the show? I would do the show. I can I have one. He’s trying to get someone else to be his proxy. And you just happened to fall in his lap right? When his curiosity was big. No, listen, do not fall for this. Listen, do not listen to him. Wrong, wrong, wrong. Here’s the thing is that if Caleb writes about it, if Caleb goes to jail, you will pay his a a legal fees.

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (34m 8s):

I’ll bail him out. That’s not what, that’s not enough. I’ll listen, I’ll send him, I’ll send him a pie with, we’ll send him a fruit basket in prison. No, I’ll send him a pie with a key so we can get out. Then you’ll go to prison and I’m gonna have to have someone else do the show with me. Actually, that’s not bad idea for you. Think about it. He’s like, send that pie with a key in it. I think it would be fascinating to, to read about how you did it and how much you paid for it. And now it’s in print for all for the fricking feds to see, you know, it’s like, yeah, super cool to send our friends to jail. That’s that’s no, but he’s gonna put it right back to stock. Yeah, right, right. He puts it right back to stock. It doesn’t work that way the next day. He can’t tamper with it. Done. If you put it back to stock stock, it doesn’t work that way.

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (34m 50s):

You know, that we’ve talked about on the show. I’m just saying just,

Caleb Jacobs (34m 56s):

I’ll tell you guys, the people, the people that know me, you know, closest they do refer to me as the Hunter s Thompson of, of, of automotive journalism. So, you know, if I do a little gonzo, if I get in the middle

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (35m 7s):

Of this yes, So

Caleb Jacobs (35m 10s):

It, it would not be an unexpected move but’s my man. But no, to tell the truth, to tell the truth, I can’t, I can’t do that. I do drive a Diesel, but I I got a seven three, I got a power stroke. So I mean you’re gonna have to bankroll, you know, something new,

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (35m 25s):

Huh? So wait, I have to buy you a new truck? That sounds fair. Or at least a new truck’s worth of Banks Power. Oh, a Stinger performance pack for the seven three. Yeah, he wants a big hos bundle or so something. There you go. Yeah. So I. I’ll, I’ll lace you up with some parts here, but that doesn’t help me with your news story where you’re taking a new ram and you’re taking all the admissions equipment and flaunting it in the fbi, his face. Yeah, but

Sean P. Holman (35m 47s):

You sending him to jail doesn’t help him either. So, it’s not gonna fair

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (35m 50s):

Trail, So it, not going to jail. What makes you think he’s gonna go to jail? Okay, he’s gonna say, I got it done. It was $4,800 and the guy did it, you know, in, in two hours, blah, blah, blah, blah. And he goes, All, right, I got it done. This is how easy It is. Hold on, Hold on. And then do you hear that? And the next day, do

Sean P. Holman (36m 2s):

You hear that Hold on? Do you hear that?

Caleb Jacobs (36m 5s):

Nope. Open up This is the,

Sean P. Holman (36m 9s):

They’re already at our door of the pod shed. Sure. Can we just let Caleb go now? Because I don’t think he’s up for his

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (36m 16s):

Aps. I’m having fun with my man. Caleb.

Sean P. Holman (36m 17s):

Yeah, it would be real fun when he’s making hooch out of like old orange peels in the clink and making

Caleb Jacobs (36m 23s):

Hooch. That’s, that’s actually part of the public school education here in southwest Missouri.

Sean P. Holman (36m 28s):

That awesome dude. Well, we, we appreciate you and I know you’ve been super busy. We’ve been trying to get you on the show, but I’m glad you made the the time for us. And if you guys wanna follow Caleb Jacobs in his work, you can go to The Drive dot com and Caleb what, where can they find you on social?

Caleb Jacobs (36m 45s):

Oh man, I am, I am not the world’s most active person on social. I’m, I’m mostly on Instagram and so you can find me at Caleb J words. But again, my dms are always open for tips. I check my social all the time. I just don’t post that much. But All, right, hit me up if you got anything story wise, you

Sean P. Holman (37m 5s):

Heard the man slide into his dms and

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (37m 7s):

Caleb thank you for not only including us in one of your recent stories, but listening to the show. We appreciate it, truly.

Caleb Jacobs (37m 15s):

Of course. Thank you guys very much for having me. Glad to be here.

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (37m 18s):

Awesome

Sean P. Holman (37m 19s):

All, right brother. We’ll we will talk to you soon ’cause I’m sure this isn’t the end of don don’t know truck news that we both care about. This

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (37m 25s):

Is definitely an ongoing saga.

Caleb Jacobs (37m 27s):

Yeah. Oh, a hundred percent years and years to come.

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (37m 30s):

Awesome. Thank you Caleb.

Sean P. Holman (37m 32s):

Stay outta jail. Thanks

Caleb Jacobs (37m 33s):

Guys. Stay

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (37m 34s):

Outta jail.

Caleb Jacobs (37m 35s):

Yeah, you bet guys. Thanks. See

Sean P. Holman (37m 37s):

Ya. So thanks again to our guest, Caleb Jacobs from The Drive. That was a great interview. And of course we gotta thank our friends over at Nissan. Head over to your local Nissan dealer at Nissan usa.com.

Jay “Lightning” Tilles (37m 49s):

And when you’re shopping for gas or Diesel pickup parts, look no further than Banks Power dot com. Type in your year, make and model and find the parts. It’ll make your truck faster or more efficient.

Sean P. Holman (37m 58s):

And if the suckage on this episode wasn’t too high and you’re willing to come back for more, then we’ve got our regular episode dropping next Monday. Good luck.